McCarthy’s exit interview: Gaetz, Trump and Mike Johnson

Soon after he delivered his final floor speech Thursday, ousted Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) offered critiques on his replacement’s legislative strategy, unloaded on Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), and said he is open to serving in a second Trump administration.

McCarthy is resigning from the House before the end of the year rather than serving the remainder of his term, putting an end to his 17-year tenure in Congress. 

With Thursday being the last scheduled in-session day for the House this year, the former Speaker made the rounds saying his goodbyes — which included a farewell speech on the House floor; a photo line to snap pictures with staffers; and a candid, hourlong conversation with a small group of reporters in his hideaway Capitol office.

“It’s kind of bittersweet,” McCarthy said when asked how he was feeling. “It’s not the timing I wanted to leave.”

McCarthy may be hanging up his hat in the House, but he is not ruling out a future stint in Washington.

Asked if he would ever take another job in public service, perhaps in a Trump White House, McCarthy said: “Yeah, I believe in public service.”

With one foot out the door and his days in Congress numbered, McCarthy did not hold back his criticism of some GOP colleagues — including Gaetz, who led the push to oust him. McCarthy has long charged that Gaetz spearheaded the effort to oust him out of anger about an Ethics Committee investigation into him — an accusation he reiterated Thursday — which Gaetz denies.

“He was psychotic,” McCarthy said of Gaetz, referring to when the Florida Republican demanded that the threshold to bring a motion to vacate be brought down to one member — a request McCarthy gave in to, which led to his ultimate ejection.

“People study that type of crazy mind, right? Mainly the FBI,” McCarthy added of Gaetz at another point in the conversation.

In response to McCarthy’s comments, Gaetz said: “Thoughts and prayers for the former congressman.”

Gaetz added, “We had a process. He was removed. He then chose to take his ball and go home, reducing our majority. Kevin’s premature departure shows it was only ever about personal power to him.”

While he is no longer holding the gavel — and is tapping out of the House — McCarthy could not help but analyze how House GOP leadership is functioning now, offering some critiques of new Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) without specifically naming him. 

McCarthy said he negotiated directly with President Biden on the debt ceiling deal over the summer so as to not elevate other congressional leaders, and he compared that strategy to the Senate negotiations over Ukraine funding and border policy.

“If you’re watching, there’s some movement — it’s the president has to come in, because the president has to cut the deal so the Democrats will vote for it,” McCarthy said.  

“But we should not be in a place where we’re waiting to see what the Senate gets. We’re the majority. We should be engaged with the president,” McCarthy said, in an apparent critique of Johnson.

McCarthy also said that he would have handled a bill to give aid to Israel differently than Johnson has. The House passed a measure in November that paired $14 billion in aid to Israel with steep cuts to IRS funding that Democrats approved last year as a “pay-for” — sparking sharp criticism from liberals. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) said he will not bring up the bill.

“What I would have done is never put a pay-for” on the Israel aid bill, McCarthy said. “If you ran that, they would have had to sign it — boom.”

Getting Israel aid out of the way and separating it from aid to Ukraine, McCarthy argued, would put Republicans in a stronger position to negotiate border policy concessions in exchange for Ukraine aid.

And delay in getting aid to Israel, the former Speaker argued, “puts doubt in peoples’ mind” about the U.S. support for Israel.

“And if we put a pay-for on Israel, are we putting one on Ukraine or anywhere else?” he said.

McCarthy also expressed concern that the House and Senate are not yet conferencing and negotiating on appropriations bills ahead of the two government shutdown deadlines on Jan. 19 and Feb. 2, and he referenced Johnson’s pledge to not pass another stopgap.

“I’m worried they’re going to be locked into a position … they’ve staked out they’re not going to do another short-term CR [continuing resolution],” McCarthy said.

But he also praised the new Speaker. 

“Johnson’s doing a good job,” McCarthy said. “This is very difficult to what he’s put in.”

Johnson, for his part, said on X when McCarthy announced his departure last week that he “served the American people and his constituents in California’s Central Valley with honor,” noting his work to win the majority and “return to regular order after Pelosi’s COVID lockdowns.”

McCarthy also said that Johnson has not come to him seeking advice about how to navigate the Speakership and the fractious House GOP conference. But if the Louisiana Republican were to consult his predecessor, McCarthy has some thoughts.

“Let’s be fair to Mike, right,” McCarthy said. “Mike hasn’t been the majority leader, he hasn’t been the minority leader, he didn’t get to build up to be Speaker, he’s thrown in the middle while we’re in the middle of the fight, right. That’s a tough place to be in.”

“My advice would be, if he asked me for it: Do not be afraid of a motion to vacate,” McCarthy said. “They cannot do it.”

The eight Republican members who joined with Democrats to remove him from office, McCarthy said, had personal motivations against him that Johnson does not have to worry about.

McCarthy, a prolific fundraiser, plans to stay involved in recruiting and boosting candidates.

“I’ve got a good chunk of money. I’ve got probably the best fundraising team out there,” McCarthy said. “I’m going to keep doing good recruiting, good at helping them. I’m just going to do that from the outside.”

He did not rule out using his own campaign war chest to boost primary challengers to the eight House Republicans who voted to oust him.

“I’m gonna raise a lot more money. I want to find conservatives who want to govern. Chaos doesn’t help us. And so, people who are willing to govern, I’m willing to help,” McCarthy said.

The California Republican, who first came to Congress in 2007 after serving in the state assembly, said he solidified his decision to resign from the House shortly before he made his announcement last week, making sure that his emotions did not cloud his thinking. But what confirmed his decision, he told reporters, was when he joined his colleagues at a GOP conference meeting as a rank-and-file member, and not the Speaker.

“I didn’t want to make any emotional decisions so I took a lot of time with it, right. Because I love the job, I loved every minute of it, good or bad,” McCarthy said.

“Before I made my final decision … I went to conference that week to see, make sure if my decision was right. Spent a few moments in conference, kind of sealed it,” he added.

And despite enduring a 15-round Speaker fight and being the first Speaker to be ousted from office, he maintains an outwardly sunny disposition — saying that 2023 was “the greatest ever.”